Slow Down to Smell the Silk Road | A Deep Talk with Australian Traveller & Travel Planner
Normally I would say you have to slow down.
The two countries really work together because Kyrgyzstan with its outdoors, its mountain,
its trekking and Bebekistan for its history and culture. I think you really need to bring
Kazakhstan into that equation. It’s not like Europe where you can say I’m going to do bang
bang bang bang bang. You have to slow down to smell the coffee. Stuart, nice to host you
in this place. This is my dacha located in western tinshine mountains 80 kilometers outside
the tashkin and I have a privilege to host this most experienced traveler between Southeast
Asia and central Asia and now having his long long journey from Bali to leads tell in few
words what you are doing in tourism. Well, the the privilege is really mine that that you
have brought me to your dasha. Not something that I ever expected I would be able to do an
opportunity and experience to have something like this uh in Tashkan or outside Tashkan memorable.
But yeah, what am I doing? I’m traveling from as you said from Bali to Leeds and we have some
downtime in Kyrgyzstan and Usbekiststan because I’ve never been to this region of the world before
and it sounded very interesting and because they the two countries really work together because
Kyrgystan with its outdoors its mountains trekking this this sort of thing and Beckistan for its
history and culture and they both there’s sort of an intermingling between the two but like in
the food for example. Yeah. So it’s been a very interesting period of downtime. Uh okay let’s uh
talk a little bit about this combination of two destinations. Yes, this is a good point. And how
do you think was it right choice uh to start from Kyrgyzstan and finish inbikistan if if it is about
two countries only? Yes. Because it’s enough for normal travel for like 2 weeks. Yeah. Sure. Or
10 days 12 days. Yeah. But uh if you like do it again, would you do it the same order or opposite
orders? Let’s start from this. Yeah, it’s that’s a hard thing for me to answer because we’re I’m
finished with Kystan now, but I’m only one week into what is going to be almost 3 weeks instan. Um
so difficult thing. You can imagine Yes. that you will spend uh more days like one one more week
in historical towns. Yes. Uh how do you think um can mountain and outdoor Kyrgyzstani tourism
product be a good compliment after exhausting running around historical caravan of Silk Road.
Yes. which is bigistan offers like a I think it really depends on the individual traveler you know
um Kyrgystan’s strength I guess I would say is its outdoors so if you don’t have a big interest to
go trekking a long way blah blah blah then you might only spend a small amount of time there but
you would spend longer in Pakistan for the culture and silk growth history and so on and so forth um
but I think they’re very complimementary mentary um destinations and and I know that you said
earlier that we were only going to talk about these two but I think you really need to bring
Kazakhstan into that equation because as you know I really enjoyed my time in in Almati um and
although I didn’t have time to travel further in in Kazakhstan it and also Tajikistan from the
south you really once you come here and start to travel you realize how much they fit together. Um
and so but for countries this is too much for nor again for regular trip. Yes. Which is usually
limited by 12 14 days. Yeah. I mean if if I was coming here for let’s say for example a twoe
holiday I would only pick one country. I wouldn’t try to put them together. Oh even not two. Yeah.
One just one. You would prefer the explorer. Yes. because from what I understand particularly at
this time of year uh Usbekiststan is hot and so if you’re out in the west doing uh visiting
Samakan Bukaraka there’s only so much time you want to spend outside when it’s 43° you know
and even though it’s not trekking up the mountain like in Kyrgyzstan it’s still trekking at the same
altitude because it’s so hot and it’s hard work so but if you have more time. If you travel slower,
then you have time to say, “Okay, I’m in Samakant. I don’t need to go and see A B CDE E. Today, I can
just go and see A in the morning and B in the late afternoon and the rest of the time I can hang out
in the homeay or I can, I don’t know, do a cooking course or whatever. Something’s slow.” But I think
for both of these countries, you can’t come here and say, it’s not like Europe where you can say,
I’m going to do bang bang bang bang bang. You have to allow time. You have to like what I always say
about Southeast Asia is you have to slow down to smell the coffee. Mhm. I know that’s ridiculous
coming from me because I’m traveling from Bali to Leeds in 64 days, but normally I would say
you have to slow down because that’s that’s why we have the time to spend well the half a day
we spent with you yesterday again. Thank you. and also in Tashkin in Tashkin in the very
center of in the very center and then this whole afternoon which has been fantastic and it’s also
emblemic of the um hospitality that you get in this region that you just don’t encounter in the
same you have to work so much harder to get that now in Southeast Asia because so much of it is so
densely touristed and so local people are not so worn come out by tourists, you know, and you have
more opportunities to sort of have people say, “Come into my life a little bit. Let me show you
a little bit more.” And you need time to let that happen. And now we stop for one moment. She will
spoil the entire performance. Okay. Sit. Sit here. She’s excited. Yeah. Our dog arrived. No,
no, no. It’s not possible. No, no, no. We We should have two versions of this
video. One would be interview. This part of the video will be fun for us.
This will be the bit that every life short I want to stick on a few things which you
just mentioned. First is word slow and second is homes. Let’s start from the last one. I read in
your comprehensive LinkedIn report of some of your days in Kyrgyzstan where you pointed to this uh
definition homeay. I have never thought so deeply about considered so deeply this difference in
definition but as one of my teachers in tourism taught me long ago everything starts from the
right definition. I mean tourism development. Yes. Because you have to understand first and after you
go. Yes. Accordingly otherwise it’s mixing up. So people call homeay now everything in especially
in remote areas of central Asia. Sometimes you see the entire hotel. Yes. Like small hotel and still
it’s it’s written homestead. Yeah. Or it is like uh some few rooms but uh as you mentioned in your
LinkedIn post few rooms but served as a hotel. Yes. Family is not living there anymore. Yeah. So
how do you think the definition home stay and the definition guest house and other definitions
about like small hotels or family hotels or hotel or boutique hotel? Yes. Uh how should we
correctly call things? Yes. Not to first not to make wrong understanding of potential customers.
Yes. And to create right experience. Yes. Which is about the place. Well, I think I think the
important thing with tourism is words matter, you know, and using the right word matters. And
a really good example is a boutique hotel. Okay. Right. When I think of a boutique hotel, I know
exactly what I think it is. But there’s I don’t know there’s probably 50 boutique hotels in
Tashkan. I don’t know. It’s just a label that somebody applies without thinking about what it
really is. So with homeay and guest house and this isn’t an issue only in this part of the world.
It’s the same in in Southeast Asia. But I think of a homeay as you are staying in somebody’s home.
Your expectations, yes, are to stay. Well, I think that’s what it really is, but it gets co-opted and
used by other businesses even though they are not a true homeay. And a true homeay to how I think
about it is when you and the hosts, the family or whoever is is welcoming you, you are all under the
one roof. Mhm. And the the value in that is that there’s a much um closer relationship. So uh say
for example we stayed in a home stay in Kazaraman in in Kyrgyzstan and it was an excellent place
like it was the hosts were very friendly very accommodating but the family slept in one one
building and the guests were in another and so there were accommodations made. So the guests
were allowed to drink alcohol in their building for example, but in the family house there’s no
alcohol. So as soon as you have that separation, you have two sets of rules. And so it makes the
it makes it more difficult in both directions to understand how people live. So if I go and and
stay in a real homeay and they don’t drink alcohol and they don’t want alcohol in my in their house,
then that’s my way of understanding that piece of that culture. And I just think it’s it’s a
better way of gaining a fuller understanding of how a different society or culture works and
why. You know, it might be for religious reasons. It might be for some other reason. You know, it
doesn’t need to be alcohol. It can be any number of different things. But as soon as the two groups
of people are in separate buildings, then there is this separation. And the it’s like the space
between them is like a wall. And travel done well is about removing that wall. And I mean you
you the advantage of having that separation also is the for the family it protects their privacy
like in the even in a real home stay you don’t go into the parents’ bedroom you know and they have
their own bathroom and things like that there is still always some separation and that’s important
because you need to respect the family’s privacy but as soon as they’re in separate buildings then
the divide gets wider and then when you have a a guest house with 50 rooms, then the divide is is
that much more again. But if and for some people maybe that’s what they want. But for people who
want to learn more and want to get close to the culture, then that’s that’s sort of what you’re
working towards. But uh from the point of you of uh of the owners themselves, the reason is to
get more gas. Yes. They are quite like afraid to restrict for instance alcohol. Yes. Even if they
own values are like this. Yes. Because they are afraid to lose some some portion of guests who
will not be happy with this. And here I think segmentation can help. Yes. Because firsth you
have to segment who is your guest. Yes. And if your if for your guest experience is valuable more
than the possibility to drink beer at night. Yes. So this means this is your guest and you will
sharpen you will create conditions in your home stay for for particularly this guest and don’t try
to grab that segment which is not yours and from the guest perspective it will be the same. Yes,
if you see alcohol is prohibited and if it is important for you I know you are not drinking but
generally so you will not go to that place. Yes, it’s I just use that as an example, but from
the business from the family’s point of view, the more you try to be everything to everyone,
the more you lose and you have nothing to give, you know. So, one size fits all doesn’t work for
anybody. Um, and I I understand the tendency like the the pressure through capitalism and growth and
everything to make more money. Um but in the same thing some of the best places are small and the
family can have a going concern. They don’t have to have 50 rooms. They don’t have to be taking so
many people if they don’t want people I I don’t mean to keep going on about alcohol, but it’s just
the easiest example. If they don’t want people um drinking alcohol on their premises, then they
should say so. They should be proud of how they live and it should be that onus should be on the
guest to respect it because I mean that’s like all travel. You’re going to somebody’s house and
they say please take your shoes off. You don’t say no I’m going to wear my shoes. You know it’s
always the same principle. Yeah. Good example by the way with shoes. No, nobody nobody afraid to
say please please take your shoes off. Yeah. And who is going to say I’m going to wear my shoes in
your house? I think the same with alcohol. Yes, this is sensitive point of course. Yes,
alcohol. But no, nobody will say no, I want to drink my alcohol. Yes. But uh how do you
think should it be properly articulated everywhere in booking system? Yes. Or booklet everywhere. I
mean yeah on the booking platforms and everything. um where wherever the guest house is trying to
like the guest house needs like and this I think comes back to not training but better explaining
to these people who often have no experience in tourism. They have just and no education and
and limited education and in tourism in tourism specialized and but it just happens that they live
in a town that for some reason tourists want to come to and they have a nice property and they’re
like oh okay let’s turn it into a homeay or a guest house but they don’t really understand what
that means. And so I think better explaining okay this is how you can attract the right people
to your place. I mean maybe there’s somebody else who loves to drink alcohol and so you know
that can be like the party place or or whatever you know but so you better educate the guests by
having information on the booking site or website or Instagram or whatever and you better explain
to the host that is their right to to decide who they would like to welcome into their house. You
know the these are not complicated things really these are really quite simple uh just about
right articulation. Yeah. And uh from your perspective home stay and guest house is this
the same? No. No. What is the difference? Uh the homeay is where you stay in the same building
as the family. That’s that’s the only thing that is in the homeay. So the guest house is where
you there might be some rooms with the family, but there’s also other rooms somewhere else, you
know, in another building or or whatever or the family doesn’t live there or or something like
that. But this is a really common problem with tourism. Like tourism is forever coming up with
new like sustainable tourism, reinventing tourism, whe responsible tourism, you know, whatever. There
are many buzzwords, many buzzwords about it. Um, and everybody takes it and says, “Yeah, we’re
doing this. We’re doing this. We’re doing this.” But nobody can even agree on what sustainable
tourism is, you know, and so bringing it back to something far simpler where are we under the
same roof or are we not under the same roof, this should be very clearly defined. Okay?
And the clearer it is that it’s defined, then it becomes easier for the host and it becomes
easier for the guests. As a tourism development guy, I see now a challenge for Central Asia to
synchronize this definition because in different as you say especially for longhaul guests they’re
interested to visit few countries at the same time. Yes. And it’s very important to synchronize
these definitions. Yes. Because at every country it’s different. In Tajjikistan and Kyrgystan you
will find many homeays. Either it is home real homeay like you say or not. In Usbekistan I have
never seen homeay. In US you will see guest houses everywhere. Again there are many questions is like
according to law in US guest house is a house with maximum 10 beds right where family is living
according to law and they have special taxation very like very small tax. Yes. Affordable.
Therefore, guest houses are spreading. Yes, as a business. But look, you just cross a border.
It’s the same Fergana Valley from Osh to Andhan and you see home state there, guest house here,
but it could be the same. So confusion. Yeah. So I I see we have to settle uh on the regional level
this small but important point. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think because like when you’re talking
about it from a governmental point of view, that’s a whole different set of issues coming in
like taxation and how you class properties because they don’t class them by are you under the same
roof, it’s by how many bodies do you have in beds, you know, so we can tax you and it’s a completely
different view. But for example like where we plan to stay in Bula it is like to my mind a home stay
but the owner calls it a hotel. Yeah it will be hotel. I think it will be hotel. So these kind
of complications just make everything a little bit more difficult than it needs to be. But for
many people it doesn’t doesn’t really matter like these kind of issues are not on their radar. you
know, they’re looking for a cheap place or or a place that’s central and they don’t care if it’s
a homeay or a guest house or a resort or whatever. But for people who are interested in that, then
this kind of stuff matters. And so the better that we can tell people what we’re actually talking
about, what’s being sold, what the package is, uh the more likely we are to put get the right
guests and the right hosts and put them together together. Yeah. And now I see we are slowly coming
to the slow tourism point which was like the second point I wanted to discuss with you. Uh so
look uh uh if it is about real slow tourism. Yes. Uh which is growing globally now. So yes, people
want a more deep experience. Yes. Don’t run. Yes. From place to place. Our previous point is
very important because if I’m like slow tourist, uh I I I want to spend really slow time that
means time full of local experiences. This is very important for for me to come to the homeay.
Yes. If if I’m looking for homeay but if finally I have found myself in a small hotel doesn’t matter
in Bkhara or somewhere in Jala in mountains of Kyrgystan my expectation will be broken yes I
I will not get what I expected yes because even small hotel with some family serving but they will
not make my time real experiential really slow I will not see what how they cook food how they
interact between each other, family members. Yes, this that. So for slow tourism besides uh
accommodation, what do you think is important to pay attention to to develop because this is
this is a growing segment. Yeah, I I think it’s a really important one. And even though you
said earlier, many people are only coming for 12 days or maybe 2 weeks or or whatever, but not
everybody, you know, some people are lucky enough they’re able to travel for for longer periods.
Um, and something that they’ve done in Southeast Asia in a few destinations now because you often
have like a something that is very famous for one thing. So everyone comes to see that one thing
and then they can take it and they go. But it’s very rare that somewhere only has one thing to
see. And so they came up with this idea called stay another day. And so what it was was okay,
you’re here, you’ve seen this, but there’s all these other things. So if you stay one more day,
you can start to to see other things. Now it’s not always possible like people have they’ve already
bought their train tickets whatever but people start to do that kind of thing and then they write
about it they blog Instagram Tik Tok whatever and so people start to realize well actually in in
Samakan there’s I can see the history stuff but there’s also this really excellent cooking course
so maybe I should make an extra day and then as soon as they stay two days then let’s see how we
can make them stay longer. And so then for maybe one year from now or two years from now, people
are planning their trips and they’re like, well actually there’s so much to do, so many things I
want to see in Samakan. I’m as an example here, but then well I’m not going to have time to
go to Bala and Ka for for example. So they’re just going to spend more time there. And that’s
that’s slowing down, you know, that’s not that’s not having a holiday that is like a military
expedition, you know, like like the trip I’m doing, you know, um where expedition. Yeah. You
know, um and so it’s having the extra time because the longer you spend in one destination, the more
of your money that stays in that destination. As long as you’re not staying at like a Marriott
or something, you know, you’re staying local businesses. Every day you’re doing something.
Every day you step outside your home, guest house, hotel, whatever, you have the opportunity to put
your money in local people’s hands. And that is a really really important issue because it’s one
of the biggest problems with tourism is how much money goes off. Of course. Of course. So if you
can encourage Many people care about it. Yes. When they pay, they’re caring. Not enough. Um but the
longer you can get people to stay in one place, which means slowing down, naturally they will
be spending more money in that destination and hopefully they will be spending that money with
local businesses, local guides, whatever. Um, and that that benefits the destination more than
someone who flies in, stays at some international chain hotel, does a 6-hour tour, goes back to the
airport, and leaves like they leave nothing. And what I like what S uh mentions, destination
is not a country. Yes, destination can be one city or one village, one place where people stay.
And uh I see another opportunity which is created by this approach. Yes. to stay slowly in one
destination. So anyway people uh heard about like for instance they stay in long in Samarand
in Bkhara but they have heard about Hiva. Yes. And it this creates opportunity to attract them
again because coming back is a main uh obstacle for sustainable tourism development. Absolutely.
of particularly in big people come one time only because they have seen everything it’s enough
yes they know there are good places like Fergus yes but it’s not enough for them to make a
decision to come again so but if we slower them yes in some destinations so we have a
chance to attract them again this is like I retention rate is important indication the
repeat tourism rate is is critical. Um, and a really good example again is Thailand and Vietnam.
So, Thailand has a very high repeat tourism rate. Vietnam doesn’t. And there’s probably lots
of different reasons that filter into that, but one of the reasons is that Vietnam is a long
thin country and all of the top shelf attractions are pretty neatly in a row. Across the country and
so like Silk Road. Yeah, exactly. Like the Silk Road. And the Silk Road is sort of it’s a bit of
a poison chalice because people think like I did, you know, I have to come here. I’ve always been
interested in the Silk Road. And it’s like, okay, how can I follow the Silk Road? And as soon as
you’re following the S Silk Road, it’s just like another banana banana pancake trail, you know,
that everybody is going to the same places and the rest of the country remains a mystery. So this
is the opportunity for people like Wasbekistan tourism to sort of step in and say okay how can we
get people to come off the main silk road like the silk road there’s many silk roads you know so how
how do we veer people off into into other places and as soon as you start to do that they can’t fit
everything in so you know you if you imagine say the Fagana Valley where there was enough there
that people knew do about to keep them busy for one week, then they don’t have time to go to
the rest. So then if people are enjoying it, they enjoy the hospitality and the food and
they say, “Okay, this year we see the west and next year we see see the east.” That kind
of thing. And then that’s what you build upon. And coming back to what I was saying earlier, the
real advantage here is you have this cluster of countries that that fit well together. It’s like
a jigsaw that you know, you could say like like I loved Alati and so I can say, “Okay, I’ll come
back to Almati, but that this time I’m going to go to Tajikistan as well or something like that
because they’re all relatively close. you know, the roads are not great, but um but this kind of
thing. And so it’s slowing people down, giving them more paths. The more effectively you can do
that, the more likely you are going to increase people coming back for a second, third, fourth
time and few more minutes of your time before we experience because now uh the Mikong corridor
example came to my mind. Do you know about this project? Yeah. Is it really working project? I
mean for practitioners like you are. By the way, Zor has a travelfish.org. This is travel
consultancy. Travel planning. Travel planning website and entire organization. Yes, I have
seen a lot of people. Yes. Consultants working there. Is it really working? Mikong corridor.
First part of my question. And second part, do we really need some kind of corridors like
that? and can we take maybe some best practices here in Central Asia or it works differently? I
think it’s not a new idea. You know, I’ve been writing about Southeast Asia for almost 30 years.
So, there’s been variations on this for quite some time. The the core purpose of it is good. It’s
sort of to let’s drag people temp people off the main trails to try and see other things and
multiple I’m sorry to disturb you because as I understood corridor concept is a planning concept.
Yes. Of course people don’t use it in regular like uh operators don’t use it. Yes. Tourists don’t use
it but those who plan tourism in each country and regionally yes they use corridor concept. They
have it in their head. Is this like this? Sorry. But but but if you think what is a corridor, it’s
a corridor is like a long thing with a few doors on it, right? So you can go off into different
things, but there’s things between every door, you know, and so yes, you can draw lines and
create relationships between them and encourage, you know, cooperation and that kind of stuff. But
I think the the issue in this part of the world is you already have the corridor and silk the silk
road. the silk corridor and it is an opportunity like Beakistan has done a very good job in tourism
promotion and everything for Silk Road things but for anything other than Silk Road things there is
not it doesn’t seem to really break through you know when I was researching I found out about a I
think it’s south of Bkar and it’s somewhere where there was a well that was leaking And they they
fixed it with a nuclear bomb in the 1960s. Oh, it is in Kakal Pakistan in Alier, right? Yeah.
The island. Yeah. No, it’s not an island. It’s in the desert. I’ll show you. It’s different. It’s
different. I don’t know about it. Right. Um well, like I don’t know that I want to go and see a
nuclear test site, but but maybe I do, you know. And so there’s lots of other things here like
this. And every time you’re able to experience something more, it’s another opportunity to to
fall in love with the country to to understand why you really need to come back here again.
And by the way, this place is not popular for foreign especially package travelers. You will
never That’s because they don’t know about your cherries. Uh this Charwag Chiman area is most
popular for domestic tourists. Yes. For people from Tashkin. Yes. Well, when we came on the train
from Tasam, do you find it interesting even for Silk Road travelers? Yes. Those who stick in Silk
Road concept. Yes. And travel from one. You mean for people who all they care about is the Silk
Road, then perhaps not. But very few people only care about the Silk Road, you know. And this is
a beautiful area. The train ride was very pretty, very interesting, very local. Like I think we were
the only western tourists on the train. I could be wrong. Um, and this is obviously and going up on
the cable car. I normally make fun of cable cars because I think they’re silly, but you get to the
top and there’s all these things clearly for local tourism and it’s very interesting to sort of see
what is interesting for local people because it’s often very different. Yes. It’s also a part of
your discovering of the country. Yes. You see how local people what you spend time travel
enjoy weekend. Yeah. Thank you so much. This is my cherry from my garden and I’m very happy
to invite our Australian friends operating in Southeast Asia to our DACA here in Cherwak. Thank
you very much. Thank you for having me. I do hope we will continue to exchange experiences and
make this travel world better. Yeah. Yeah. And I’ll I’ll repay the favor when you come to Bali.
You can stay in my Balanese dagger and then then we’ll be leaving. And now it’s time to go to
BA. Okay. Thank you. Sounds good. Thank you.
In this talk, Michael Shamshidov (Tourismolog) sits down with Stuart McDonald, an experienced traveler, tour planner and founder of TravelFish.org, the leading independent travel advisory platform for Southeast Asia.
Filmed in Michael’s dacha overlooking the mountains of Western Tyan-Shan in Charvak, 80 km from Tashkent, this dialogue bridges Southeast & Central Asia to rethink how we define travel, hospitality, and experience (time).
Key topics discussed:
1. Defining “HomeStay” vs. “Guest House” – Why Words Matter in Tourism
Stuart dissects the misuse of tourism terminology across Asia and explains why clear definitions build authentic traveler expectations and protect local culture.
Together, he and Michael explore how Central Asia can harmonize its tourism language – from “homestay” to “boutique hotel definitions.”
2. The Art of Slow Tourism
“Travel done well is about removing the wall,” says Stuart.
The two discuss how slowing down travel creates deeper local immersion, better community benefit, and more meaningful economic impact – from cooking with hosts to staying “another day.”
3. Regional Synergy: linking Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan
Why combining mountain adventures in Kyrgyzstan with Silk Road heritage in Uzbekistan (and modern vibes in Almaty) makes sense – if travelers learn to slow down.
Stuart shares lessons from his Great Mekong Corridor experience and parallels for the Silk Road region.
4. The Future of Authentic Travel Planning
From TravelFish.org’s decades of practice to the rise of traveler self-education, this episode reflects on how digital travel advice can preserve human curiosity, not replace it.
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