We are going to discuss the Ineos Grenadier. Superchats will get comments read and questions answered.
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4xOverland is the world’s only public-funded global 4WD adventure off-road motoring channel. Established in 1996, it is hosted by well known 4×4 writer, explorer and filmmaker, Andrew St Pierre White.
39 Comments
I wish Suzuki built a larger 4 door Wrangler sized model above the Jimny. Keep it basic with live axles and body on frame, maybe just a NA petrol V6, 8 speed auto, a diff lock or two. Sell it for 50 or 60k AUD. I reckon it would sell like hotcakes!
Yeah I think it’s really disappointing to see the market price of the Ineos. We all followed it and contributed over the last 3-4 years and then when rolls out it comes at 120k. Untested. Faith in the purposeful ness of this vehicle is gone and as well the good intentions of his potential customers. If it’s a utilitarian vehicle. It’s the most ridiculous mis match of segment market vs price. And we all know there cheap plastic in this thing. That plastic dash is stupid. The Chinese 300 tank 50k. Front rear diff lock! Sure sure reliability. Well ineos is new as well. But I can get two half 300 tanks for the same price!!
On the urban channel are doing stuff on them
Of course, there are 78s with a 4.0 V6. They are called GRJ 78. I own one. Fantastic engine with a lot of power. Super reliable, nice sound, no turbo, no nonsense. Around 272 PS. Not too heavy on petrol. It was imported to Germany from the Arabian market.
I was good to go when the possible price was 67k us for the trail master. By the time they started taking orders in the US it was 79k.
morocco – we are going there this year, and book and author your were talking about is probably Chris Scott and Morocco Overland
I can't afford one at the current price, but most new cars are now crazy prices.
Great concept just needs a more basic model, more affordable. I drove Defender 110s during 22yrs service in Australian Army, Africa, Timor and all over Australia. It was basic simple and easy to fix. The Isuzu engine very reliable.
Can’t wait to test a Granadier.
I agree with your points, should be a better option than a Toyota Landcruiser. But Australia farmers are already brand name brainwashed!
Weight. The Grenadier is a heavy vehicle and in the UK its weight means it’s classified as a commercial vehicle. This restricts it to 60mph on Motorways and 50mph on A Roads.
Most retail users will be using it as car for the family. In UK you need a vehicle that can travel at motorway speeds.
New Defender – you can drive the length of the UK at good speed and drive up a mountain.
With the Grenadier you travel at old Defender speed.
The VW Amarok V6 suffered this same fate.
Most Automotive Journalists have very little practical knowledge of how to properly use a 4wd anyway, they make me cringe when they drive off-road extreme tracks.
Patrol Y62 5.6ltr V8
Pricing. The Grenadier is a new vehicle. There is limited production capacity at the start – why not sell with all the toys at a good price. This allows good margin to recoup development costs.
Price will be reduced when NGO’s and other agencies start buying in volume. And they will want basic versions I would have thought – no Recaro Seats etc.
People are already buying GWM Tank 4wds to do R&D for accessories, so I can’t see why they wouldn’t do the same with Ineos.
Oh pining for the good old days…He wants a simple and cheap vehicle that would be impossible to sell in Europe and the USA. Most of the customers don't want a farm truck like Andrew. He's not being realistic. Lot's of points made; only a couple valid. I just can't watch this anymore
Uk wise , I have read these appear to be not Vat reclaimable , ( not sure all models , Quartermaster ? ) as think they are too heavy ( unladen weight ) to achieve the minimum payload to be classed as a commercial vehicle & that must add up to a max of 3500kg GVM , HMRC then doesn't recognise as a commercial vehicle ? If this is the case has INEOS been completely unaware of the projected vehicle weight they were building until right at the end , I would have thought 2000 / 2100 /2200 kg unladen weight to then have a decent payload & then classed as a commercial , but from what ive read is far far over this . They have lost me as a buyer if I cannot reclaim the vat , as they will have Uk wise most businesses , who I think would be the main stream purchasers especially bearing in mind the price bracket these are in .
From an European Union (EU) perspective:
Today the "farmer's car" (as a global sold vehicle that is tough and usable for professionals as a day by day working horse 5 days/week and a family car in the weekend) is the pick-up truck. Hilux, Ranger, etc. Payload 1000kg, able to take an euro pallet, possible to ad a hardtop, good comfort inside. Mid spec price in EU 42-45k Euro or less, all taxes included, and you get yourself a vehicle with low range transfer case, center and rear diff lock, rear solid axle and IFS (I know, but IFS is not anymore a capital sin), HDC, TC and low tax as an N1 vehicle. Just change the tires from stock and you have a capable vehicle for working in remote areas almost out of the showroom. If you need or want more, there is a huge market for mods. Come home from work Friday afternoon, unload all the tools, throw o tent, fridge and whatever and you are ready to go fishing or overlanding, or camping off grid. And your small or medium business will pay for the car, completely deductible from profit.
LR Defender, Ineos Grenadier, Jeep Rubicon, Ford Ranger Raptor and soon Ford Bronco Raptor (this is the complete list of ready to go on the trails cars sold in EU) are offered on a niche market for people with passion for offroad or overlanding AND the means to buy this dream/story sold by the marketing dpt. And as we all know, any hobby involving an engine will not come cheep. Let's be honest here, even with the lowest budget in mind, a proper complete overlanding vehicle will cost at least 20kEuro (just think of buying a Nisan Patrol Y61, completely repair it and prepare it for outdoors). Less than that you can have a Suzuki Samurai with camping gear of a bushcraft enthusiast.
So, in my opinion, Ineos Grenadier positioned themself on the market with a price tag close to Rubicon and Ranger Raptor but less than a LR Defender, they build it with what they considered to be appealing to this customer, and it is working. Maybe you don't believe, but in EU are a lot of people that can afford this price tag, and in the US are even more. Just look how many LR Defender, Ranger Raptor and Wrangler Rubicon are sold every year.
Now think about US market. How many cars are they able to make at Ineos plant every year? The waiting list is 8months to 1year for any of this 4 models. They are conducting a business and that it is not the "farmer's car" business, it is the business that sell the dream of freedom in the nature to people sitting all day in boardrooms of some big company or high skill professionals, people making over 250k Euro every year or more. And they want Recaro seats, and aircraft industry inspired switches, and all the jingle and whistle possible. This is the right perspective to consider Ineos Grenadier. And with this perspective in mind we should judge this cars.
Sorry Andrew, sorry to all passionate people waiting for a miracle to happen, but it's just a dream not feasible today with this market and this brands and this safety and environment regulations. It is possible only with a company like Dacia (Renault Group) that have proven that a proper reliable cheap SUV (Dacia Duster) can be a huge success on the market. And there is a big cult following this car that is perfect in EU for any outdoor activity with little mods. It is the new Suzuki Samurai or Vitara. The most expensive one is 22k Euro all taxes included. I know, there is no low range transfer case, there are no solid axles, there is no ladder frame chassis, but it is working. In farms, on the mountain trails, on the roads. Just put a good suspension and proper tires and it is unbelievable for EU trails (keep in mind that on the most remote trail you have a village at 10km).
With the up most respect you are the David Attenborough of the four-by-four world. 🙂
A Gaggle of Grenadiers
You set out to build a new 4×4. Who are you going to get the build it. What experience do they have. Given a car design lasts 8 years or so. Most engineers will have 5 cars in them. Theyvare only going to be senior enjineer on there last couple. The new guys only know how to build a modern car. The "older traditional 4×4 atributes" skills are with guys who have retired.
The guy who spends more $$ n builds than any other creator is SOO hung up on price? Or is it they knocked you back when you asked for one? Hmm
You are becoming yet another Toyota fanatic
Prices of vehicles in general have been getting out of hand. I like the idea, but its about 40k too much for something I'd actually wanna go beat up offroad. I'd buy a jimny here in the states for a runabout and weekend warrior but they dont even offer it here. The only way you are buying these things these days if you're DINK or making well over 3 figures…
One guy with one idea made this car from scratch and has spent 1.5 billion pounds so far trying to make it. The car is made in France. It is produced in a Mercedes factory. It's got a BMW engine. What part of that do you think sounds "cheap to make". INEOS isn't competing with anyone it's trying to stay afloat. Toyota makes 25 billion a year in profits. They can't really be compared. Give it time I reckon it's going to be better and cheaper in a few years
Ineos are limited to selling 6,000 vehicles a year in the U.K. due to fleet emissions limits, so to lower the price and reduce margins would be financial suicide. The Jimny non-commercial is no longer on sale in Europe. If farmers want an affordable vehicle they buy a Hilux or other pick-up (Ute). They can also claim the VAT back. You can’t claim the VAT back on a Grenadier as it doesn’t have a 1000kg payload. You can’t expect Ineos to sell a mega cheap 4×4, when they have invested over a billion into the project. If you want the cheapest 4×4, just buy a Dacia or something used. P.S. loudly slurping tea doesn’t sound great on mic.
Watching on catch up. I watch all your content on my TV. It would be criminal to watch those wonderful trips on a phone.
I honestly (and a little bit sadly) couldn’t keep watching after about 15 minutes.
I liken the arrival of the Grenadier to that of the Range Rover many decades ago – an epiphany that you didn’t need a piece of crap to go off road. Back then ,it wasn’t a fad to double the cost of the vehicle in “overlanding” modifications. You just threw your gear in the back and went camping. Exactly what Andrew remembers fondly about his RR in Africa – and I don’t think those trips depended on having a Travel Buddy.
In my opinion, Andrew’s:
Trip videos – must watch, brilliantly put together.
Troopy builds – fun but getting a little repetitive.
Bearings wear analysis of old Troopy – yawn.
Madge rants to camera – embarrassing.
I don’t need to make money from YouTube so it’s an easy choice for me to drive a Grenadier off the lot, throw my gear in the back and go camping. Unfortunately I don’t have Andrew’s filming skill, sublime editing and iconic voiceovers to make videos of it that anyone would watch.
Very pessimistic person.
evry vehicle got pros and cons
It makes much more sense to build the grenadier for the masses and see if it sells before creating a basic version for the enthusiasts. I would expect a basic version to come later.
the Xoverland network may be helpful in gaining some commercial traction in America. Reaching out the Clay may be worth while. So much of your content is amazingly shot, and would be a great fit for that network.
I absolutely love when its Q&A. Let's pick Andrew's mind! Andrew and Paul Podcast,
Let this happen!
Looking forward to Andrew doing a 3 week review of the Granadier.
I love to watch your trips on my tv via YouTube app
The basic Grenadier has no aircraft rails, has not floor carpets, has no heated seats, has no additional power supply nor roof switches, has textile seats, has no back side windows, has no winch, has no ladder, has no roof rack has no of the most of the stuff you say. The cars you’re talking are mainly fully equipped.
Can't see how you keep ranting on about this vehicle. Yes, you had more hopes for it and it failed in your eyes but move on. Love your adventures and feel your time and energy could be spend much better. How about looking into other modern overland capable vehicles and experiment with ways to fit them out for the common bloke who doesn't want to fork out $100k+ on a troopy. But thats just my rant now 🙂
Grenadier needs to make more of a base model as you stated and offer smaller options like locking axles package such as the Ford Sasquach package or Jeep X-Recon.
Andrew, I thoroughly enjoyed this Q&A. I value your opinion on all things off road. I live in the States and have placed a pre-order for a Grenadier, despite the increased cost, which was heartbreaking news since it was originally promised for a much lower price. I do marketing and video production for one of the largest automotive companies in the world, and I think it would be incredible to have the Grenadier as our full time adventure vehicle. But I agree with you that I wish Ineos was offering a stripped down model that included the three locking diffs for true off road enthusiasts. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Thought your earlier thoughts were a bit harsh, but then remembered YouTube metrics and bit my tongue a bit…
Missed this when live but have just taken delivery of a Trialmaster in WA. It’s not as basic as a Troopy. But that also why I bought it. By the time I changed the Troopy to be close to what I want I will have spent more than the Ineos cost. Eg Recaro seats, axle alignment, engine chip to let it breathe, etc. It’s also more robust than 150 or 300 series Landcruisers or any Landrover in its construction, though time will tell how well that translates to usage.
Waited a long time for it and thoroughly happy.
Seat comfort: I agree with ASPW. My last car, a Prado, the seat felt comfortable when I sat in it but not comfortable after hours of driving. My current car, LC76, the seat doesn't provide stand out comfort when I sit it, but after hours of driving I'm still comfortable. ps: I know most people don't like the 70 series seats but for some reason they suit my body which is good because it saves me $2k+ expense
Hi again, regarding the aftermarket available for the Grenadier, of course is not the same as quite common car, but trust me there are already some companies making amazing aftermarket products for the Grenadier, and I’m pretty sure that once it start to be sold in USA, much more companies will make products for it.
So yes, you’re right but please consider that it’s a completely new vehicle of a new brand just arrived to the market some months ago. Let’s wait a bit, I’m confident that there will be an important amount of products available for it, so little by little more different Grenadiers will be found around the world